(Transcription)

Ann Rea (00:00):

And yes, we are live. And then my name is Ann Rea. I’m an artist and a mentor, and I am the creator of making art, making money program. And I’m here with one of my students, Kristina, who is hailing from Connecticut, but used to be San Francisco.

Kristina Quinones (00:15):

Yeah. So I lived in San Francisco for 11 years and I loved every minute and I sold lots of art out there.

Ann Rea (00:22):

Oh, okay. Well, great! So what I’d love to do is just ask you, before you joined the program, what were the top two challenges that you were dealing with when it comes to your art or life?

Kristina Quinones (00:39):

Or life? I was relying so much on the gallery system to sell my work. It was, it was ingrained in my soul. This is what you need to do. You go to art school, you get your Masters of Fine Arts. You know, you work, you work at building your career up and then you get into the gallery and your life should be easy. People are there. They’re supportive, which I found many gallerists were and their true intentions were to support me in the beginning.

Ann Rea (01:13):

Okay. So you were, you were kind of sold a formula. It sounds like to basically work really hard and develop new bodies of work. And then hope to show them. And then hope to pray them or hope they would sell. So I call that the hope strategy versus a marketing strategy

Kristina Quinones (01:41):

I have some reworking to do. And this is why I’m in the program. I need a little more, little rewiring.

Ann Rea (01:47):

Yes. I mean, I always call, you know, I call it the tyranny of hope and I would much rather deal with the harsh reality than live and operate under false hope. Um, because I think it’s much more constructive and if we deal with reality, we can actually navigate the world in a much healthier and much more productive place. So that’s sort of my perspective. So I’m kind of curious. So you’re– all right. So tell me a little bit, you, obviously some, you know, not all gallerists are bad, not all representatives are bad. Some of them, you know, operate with a lot of, you know, ethical standards, but then there are some that are not. And so, um, can you share a little, like, I mean, let’s back up. So what specifically, before we go into that, what specifically did you want to learn in the Making Art Making Money program that you didn’t learn in art school? What was the missing piece for you?

Kristina Quinones (02:48):

Creating healthy boundaries? I wanted to learn more so how to, you know, if I want my career to grow, I want to have more control over it and I let go of so much control. And then I found myself wondering, you know, I’m relying on them so much and feeling that I need that gratification I need, I need to be noticed through the gallery. I need to be in that art fair. I need to be seen through that. Um, people, you know, they need to look at my resume. It needs to be full. I need to have many shows a year. I need to donate many pieces, which I did happily. And I loved every moment of it, but I definitely did not have many agreements between my art reps. I’ve had multiple art reps. Written agreements, you mean? Written agreements. Um, I did have gallery, uh, written agreements, but not all of them.

Kristina Quinones (03:49):

I’m guilty of this. I, I did this. I did not cover myself. And I just, you know, I was hopeful. I was just feeling so fortunate that they were there speaking on my behalf and selling my artwork for me, that in the end, when they came on hard times, I had to suffer as well. And it just broke my heart. I just, I’ve been working with a couple of different people for the past tens, 12 years reps. And I go in and out of galleries with them. And then most recently in 2018, it started a cycle of, you know, sold some artwork at an international art fair, very prestigious. And then I didn’t get paid my half for the art piece. And those galleries that, well, the, that go there, you have to be, you know, of a caliber or invited. Um, they don’t usually just let artists show at the international art fairs.

Kristina Quinones (04:56):

Although now they have that for artists, which is very nice. So it started there. And then I just, I had been with this person for so long and it just really, I don’t think that person realized how much affected me. Cause I relied on him to sell my work for me. I gave up too much control and it affected my relationship with my husband asking me, did you, did you remind this person about the payment and that went on for over a year? I said, you take over honey. I I’m in, I’m broken up over this. I’m trying to keep this person positive so that they can feel that they can get the money to pay me back here. I am, you know, and then trusting them. I allowed them to sell another piece of very large piece. And I remember when the white glove service came to my studio to pick up the piece, to ship it away. I had a bit of a standoff, actually. I, you know, I said, we’ve gone through this my time. So many emails, my promises that you would send this out to me like, and I need you, I need another letter. You need to tell me that you are going to pay me for this one and

Ann Rea (06:15):

Or a check would be nice. How about, how about a bank transfer? I didn’t remind me whatever. Yes. Can you, what you owe me? Yes.

Kristina Quinones (06:28):

But if I found myself begging and pleading and trying to get the person, their spirits up again, that they can do this, you can pay me back.

Ann Rea (06:39):

This is not your job.

Kristina Quinones (06:43):

This is not my job. I’m supposed to make art and somebody’s supposed to sell it for me, right? And that’s that, right?

Ann Rea (06:48):

Well, the fact, well you’ve learned that that rarely happens. And so when it does happen, here’s what happens, everyone. If, if, and when you do find representation, if, and when. Eventually you fall out of favor or they go out of business, we’re fall on hard times and forget to pay you and forget to pay you. Or another artist comes along whose art is just more saleable than yours, and then you’re displaced. So what I hear Kristina, you’re saying throughout this conversation is hope, hope, hope, hoping that he would get it, hoping he would have empathy and out of integrity, keep his word. And then it went on to affect your marriage. This is the thing that people don’t understand. And so if any of representatives are listening to this and you haven’t paid your artists, shame on you because you don’t even fricking own the inventory.

Ann Rea (07:45):

You’ve only consigned the inventory. You have unlimited access to tax-free inventory. So that is the least you could freaking do is pay them what you owe them on time. You haven’t even had to buy the inventory. That’s what drives me nuts. Here’s the other thing is the, the other thing that you said, and I just want to point this out, not to make you feel bad, because honestly, you’re taking your power back now, Kristina. You understand now there’s another way. But what happens is artists get so charmed by the word prestige, right? Prestige is if the front, the law, the French root meaning of the word prestige is deceit. So they put you in a spell under a spell thinking, oh, it’s, this is prestigious. And then that puts you in a position where you have to feel grateful and you’re feeling less than, and they’re, they’re up here and you’re down here and you’re essentially groveling for what is, you know, for, for your, for your crumbs.

Ann Rea (08:56):

And it puts you in a really disempowered place. And then of course you are now dependent upon these people, reliant upon these people. So you want to stay in their good graces. So I hear from artists who are trying to salvage these very dysfunctional and abusive relationships in an attempt to save what they believe in their mind is a career when it’s not a career, it’s a business. It’s a business. If you don’t believe me, just ask the IRS. You have to file a profit and loss statement for your business. And so when you think about this as a business, these are boundaries. You would never blur. These are terms that no reasonable business person would ever agree to, like take my inventory and don’t bother paying me for it or sell my inventory and don’t bother paying me for it. Are you kidding? There’s no restaurant that would operate under those conditions.

Ann Rea (09:49):

There’s no clothing store that would operate under those conditions. There’s no airline that would operate under those conditions. There’s no freaking business that would function. So I just want to kind of wrap up. I just want to wrap this in some reality here, because I do believe that so many artists through this indoctrination, through of the, that the art establishment puts them through starting in art school. We’re under, we’re sort of under a misinformed, a spell of misinformation and a spell of basically disempowerment. And here’s the thing, Kristina, you have sold well. Yes. Well, so I want you to get paid. I don’t want you. Here’s the thing. You’re not just giving 50% away in sales commissions. What you lose when you have an art representative is the opportunity to sell by referral referrals generate over 79% of more sales, on average. You can actually do better than that, where you keep a hundred percent of the money. So this representative is not doing you any down favor. This representative is in your way and your collectors care a hell of a lot more about you Kristina, than they do about this middleman.

Kristina Quinones (11:12):

I want to stay connected with my collectors. I always try my best to get involved. It’s hard to. Be there for the, you know, I get pulled into the galleries to close, um, helps close the purchase, you know, and not where

Ann Rea (11:32):

Do you get paid a higher commission when you help them do their job? 

Kristina Quinones (11:40):

No. I need money for my art. I need to pay for well, besides the fact that I have a family, I have kids and yeah, justify

Kristina Quinones (11:46):

It. You create something of value and you have an agreement with them and it is up to them to honor their agreement. Yeah. You don’t have to explain why you need the money. I remember interviewing another artist. Who’s a gallery stole, just one of many galleries told $60,000 from her. And she said to the gallery owner, I need to get paid. I have a mortgage. I have a child. My child needs to be fed. And you know what the gallery owner said to her true story. He said, well, how much food does your child need?

Ann Rea (12:20):

He stole $60,000 from her. So, Kristina, what I’m trying to say is your story is not different from many stories. I hear from artists all around the world, not just here in the United States. And so it actually just me off and fuels my mission even more because I want to give voice to you, Kristina. And I want to give voice to other artists who are enduring these ridiculous onerous terms. Take your power back. Everybody. People who care about art care about the artists. They don’t care about the middleman. So shove them aside and learn how to get paid. All right. I’m uh, I’m off my rant, Kristina. I just get so pissed.

Ann Rea (13:05)

I tell you,

Ann Rea (13:07):

You’re a nice person. You, you worked hard to create your work and you’re having– you shouldn’t have to deal with this. They are not holding up their end of the bargain.

Kristina Quinones (13:19):

I just needed to, you know, speak with you about this because I feel that even going through your course, it’s fantastic. And I found myself blocked because I had the secret. The secret that, you know, I was embarrassed that I’m still owed so many thousands of dollars.

Ann Rea (13:37):

You’re not alone, don’t be embarrassed.

Kristina Quinones (13:40):

And so this hopefully will help me clear up those, you know, just that block that has been there and help me move forward, because who knows, if I will ever get paid. I’m ready to move forward. And just my art needs to be seen and experienced. And I hope to meet everyone and be there with them. And I just, I love that connection. 

Ann Rea (14:07):

Well, if you do the work that I tell you to do in the program, there’s absolutely no doubt that you’ll get those results, but you are going to have to take your power back and going forward, make yourself a promise that you will not do business without a written agreement that benefits both sides because here is the thing. Agreement — written agreements actually save relationships

Ann Rea (14:30):

Because you can point back to the boundaries of that agreement and say, hold on a second. This is what I said I would do. And when, and this is what you said you would do. And when, and this is what we agreed, we both agreed would be the consequences. And there needs to be consequences built into these agreements. And really it’s so lopsided it’s. So one-sided because owners have access to unlimited tax-free inventory. There’s no retailer who gets inventory for free just art galleries. So the boundaries are already blurred, right? They’re already blurry, but that said, you’ll be able to sell so much art and so much more art and make so much more money. Kristina, if you just get, just get them out of your way.

Ann Rea (15:16):

Yeah. Uh, has this happened to you when you were in the galleries? I know it’s probably happened to a lot of other people watching. Isn’t it fun when you get your art back damaged? It’s like I’ve had

Kristina Quinones (15:30):

My art back damaged. I’ve had, oh my gosh. Yep. That’s happened to me. And then I will say this. I had a gallery owner here in San Francisco, commissioned me to do a painting for her home. She then leaned up a chair against the canvas, damaging the painting. And then even though she signed a commission agreement, then she wrote me a letter or an email to say that she wanted to return the painting, the damage, the painting that she damaged, by the way. Yeah, for real, that really happened. And if you’re listening, you know who the hell you are, like the, I mean, it’s like really. So you’re just, I think that I do believe things happen for a reason, Kristina. And, um, I think things came to a head with this particular person. And I hope you, I hope the hell you share this with him, um, that so that you could take your power back. There is no reason you should be in a place where you’re begging for your own money. And you’re, you’re having to deal with damaged inventory and you’re having to involve your husband in this. This is ridiculous.

Kristina Quinones (16:41):

It’s, it’s hard because I think it’s been so many years of friendship, what I thought we built into a friendship. So that’s why I would give this, you know, if I, I was a Campbell, I had a very long wick. I would just let it go. And we’ve been working together forever. It’s going to be fun. But I was looking back in my notes, this all started in August. That was an 18. But you know, there are many happy years before then. So I, you know, I just,

Ann Rea (17:19):

That’s the tyranny of the hope. That’s the tyranny of hope. Well, it was good before it’ll go back to the way it was when we were friends and he was fair, you know, it’s like a bad relationship. You know,

Kristina Quinones (17:33):

I thought I was stronger than that. I’m stronger than that in so many ways. But when it comes to my art, it’s, it’s very personal. So I just,

Ann Rea (17:42):

You know, well, the art itself is very personal, Kristina. It absolutely is very personal, but the business is a different mechanism. It’s a different with a different thing altogether. And what happens is when artists confuse the two or think that they’re one, they’re not think of it this way. When a doctor is practicing medicine, they’re pre they’re with their patient present trying to diagnose and heal, right. But then someone’s got to bill that patient, or there’s not going to be any medicine practiced. No. Right. There’s not going to be any healing that’s going to go on. So I think what it is is to, that’s why I have making art, making money, two different phrases, right? Put together. It’s really a joining of heaven. And earth is really what it is making art is up here. Making money is down here. And if they there, if they’re not together, not much happens.

Kristina Quinones (18:46):

I agree. That’s why I’m a hundred percent on board. And I’m looking forward to keep an eye on with the program, trust the process.

Ann Rea (18:55):

Yeah. And ask for help when you need it. And, you know, understand that you are not alone. And there’s no reason for you to feel shame. So many artists have come to me because they’ve experienced exactly what you’ve experienced or something similar. Some on a bigger scale than you’ve experienced some on a lesser, it doesn’t even matter. What matters is that you are going to take this opportunity to take your power back. And you’re going to turn this awful experience, hopefully into inspiration, to look, you know, to build a foundation for yourself. And I want you to stop saying art career. You don’t have one. You’re never going to have one because there are no jobs for fine artists. There’s no paychecks being issued. What you own is a business and you have to own it and you have to run it and everyone else can get the hell out of the way, who is not helping you in that process.

Kristina Quinones (19:51):

I agree. I’m on board.

Ann Rea (19:53):

Excellent. So, um, Isabel says, wow, that sucks. I’m sorry. You had to go through that. Yeah. And Angela says, uh, yes. Thank you. Well done for sharing this, Christina. Um, so I guess one question I have for you is if someone was like sitting on the fence, you’re sitting on the fence, like what, what made you like almost not join? Is there, was there anything, the program, like, was there something in your head? Like, I don’t know, this could be some scam. I don’t know about this. What was it in your head?

Kristina Quinones (20:26):

I think it was really facing, I did do my research find out that you are very legit. And when I did live in San Francisco, I did hear about you. So that was familiar to me. I’ve been out of San Francisco for seven years now. Um, but yeah, I think it was, you know, I can’t go down that route. I’ve been going this path. I can’t, what am I doing? You know, I, I don’t want to, I really, you know, it, it’s hard to think that I would be breaking ties with people by speaking about this, but you know, what, what are they going to do for me in the future?

Ann Rea (21:03):

That’s for sure.

Kristina Quinones (21:04):

No. And I need to keep this going. I mean, it’s not, you know, I need money. Yes. To paint. I need to keep that going. But it’s more than that. I need to get paid for my time. I’m tired of being the, I even, you know, set the painting in stage in the image for art reps. Oh, let me help you place that in. You don’t know Photoshop. I’ve got that. And that’s how, you know, I’ve just pushed over because I had thought that we were a team and we’re not a team

Ann Rea (21:36):

Because it’s not an equal, they’re not equal terms. This 50, 50 percentage is not equal because you don’t have access to your own collectors. And by the way, everyone, a gallery not giving you your collectors contact information. I emphasize yours. Not theirs is often illegal in many states because they’re not there. They don’t own the inventory. They’re not their collectors are your collectors, Christina. So I would say one power move for you is to see if you can get as many, as much information as possible from these wayward. Like if that full isn’t going to pay you, the least you could do is cough up the contact information of the people who have purchased your art through him, because you could, you could do a whole appreciation party about that and I can coach you through it. Okay. I mean, given, you know what asking is free, Christina, you know, hopefully this guy will do something to make it right. And you know, I’ll pay you later is not gonna, is not gonna fly. He needs to do something, a gesture of Goodwill right now. And that would be one thing he could do. And it wouldn’t cost them a dime.

Kristina Quinones (22:51):

No it wouldn’t. Um, and I think I actually have a fair amount of the people because he always brings me in the, into the deal with it. Okay. Well, I have their email,

Ann Rea (23:03):

So great. So we’ll talk about this inside the private Facebook group. But I think that once you have your mission and you’ve gone through the selling course, which is course number six, I think your next best move would be an appreciation party. Let’s see if we can extract some sales from these people and you do it in a way that’s really graceful. And that’s really mission-driven. And I think you’ve got some real potential there and you’re going to keep all the money and he’s going to get zero, which is what he deserves. Um, Matthew eliminate the middleman. Nobody wants to talk to them anyway. They don’t, they’re boring. Um, this make up too. Um, and no more art you have to do. You don’t have to write any more artists statements anymore. Kristina, those dreadful things. Um, mark says, this is so much more common than many realize even more repulsive behavior in the deceitful blue chips, shame on them. Thank you. Oh yeah. It’s even worse. It’s even worse there. So I guess one last question I have for you is if someone was like sitting on the fence and they weren’t sure about applying to enroll, like you were at one point, what would you honestly say to them?

Ann Rea (24:16):

If you want to change, what’s happening to you, join the program and making art, making money because there’s so much more, yes, it’s about making money, but it’s really reaches down in your soul, holds out, helps you pull out your mission and what, why you do this. It brings you back to the meaning of your art and really helps you get fine tune that. And it’s not just the artist statement. It’s not just roses. It’s, it’s very clear. Um, once you’ve discovered why you’ve been doing this, so just make the change for yourself. It’s about that time. I think I, I actually thought about this for at least three years or four.

Ann Rea (25:06):

I hate hearing that. I hear it all the time. Cause I’m thinking, oh,

Ann Rea (25:08):

How much art you could have sold, but whatever you made it now, you don’t like, yeah. If your list, thank you. First of all, thank you, Kristina. And if you just listen to what Kristina said, you know, don’t wait three or four years, you know how much art you can be selling in three or four years? Like, don’t sit there on the fence.

Kristina Quinones (25:26):

There’s so many tools that the Facebook group has that I, you know, I’m I thought I was tech savvy, but then there’s different, cool tools out there. And you know, things you can do, you don’t have to.

Ann Rea (25:41):

Yeah, we have, we have super smart, generous people in our community who are willing to help. It’s not like let’s keep this real. A lot of artists are really jealous of each other and they’re competing with one another and they’re snobby and we just don’t have that. Well, I won’t allow it. First of all, that’s the thing. That’s the first thing out you go. Um, but I don’t, I don’t even attract people like that. It just, it just works out. So it’s true. Well, I want to thank you for your time and for just generously sharing your honest experience. And I don’t want you to, I don’t want this painful experience to go to waste. I want this to be a lesson for you and a lesson for everyone else. Who’s listening and a lesson for that representative who owes you money, pay her.

Ann Rea (26:32):

That might never happen, but that’s okay. I can

Ann Rea (26:36):

Make it. It’s not our big debt. You know, listen, dude, you can either pay her what she, you owe her. Now, if for some reason you’re going to claim that you’re don’t have the money, which have hard time believing, um, take out a fricking loan either. It’s not your money. It’s not your money. Give it to her and, and give her her collector’s contact information so she can get on with her life, please. All right, then thank you for letting me rant. That was so refreshing.

Kristina Quinones (27:08):

I’m healing through this. This is definitely helping me heal through all this sadness and feeling alone and not wanting to tell people what was actually happening and just being very embarrassed. Yeah. You have

Ann Rea (27:21):

No reason to be embarrassed, Kristina, you should have no reason to feel any shame. The only person who should be embarrassed right now and should feel shame is that art representative who owes you money and that’s it, you’ve done nothing wrong. You have. What you could do in the per in the future is have clear boundaries and understand the repercussions of not having clear boundaries. That’s your lesson to learn, but you have no reason. It’s like, you’re the victim here. There’s no reason for you to feel shame for being a victim at all. I don’t want to be a victim.

Kristina Quinones (27:55):

Do you know, do you know how hard it is to even like, you know,

Kristina Quinones (28:00):

It was hard enough to realize, oh, I I’m an artist that was long ago, but to come to that, you know, moment and then believe in myself, I’ve already gone through really hard steps. Why I don’t want to be the victim. I just, it, that’s why I didn’t want to tell any of them.

Ann Rea (28:19):

Well, you know, I won’t let you be, cause I don’t, we don’t stand for that in the program. You’re not the victim. You’re taking your power back. And your first step was coming on here and having a conversation with me and sharing your real experience and letting other people know that this is real. And if you’re, if you’re having to deal with this right now with your representative, you have an option. You can apply to enroll in the making art, making money program. You can meet people like Christina and other artists who are actually helping one another, not just like kind of helping actually helping one another. So there is an option available to you. And um, you need to under also understand that, you know, our galleries are closing. Our shows are being canceled. And so you can either, you can do one of three things. You can keep doing what you’re doing and I’m telling you right now, you’re going to fail because they’re either going to go out of business or you’re going to be displaced.

Ann Rea (29:17):

The other option is you do some things here and there. Try a little of this, try to little that you’re still going to fail. You’re just going to fail more slowly. Or you could do the right things right now and jump in and join us if you, if I get your application and I think I can help you, I will give you access to a masterclass, which is a prerequisite. If I don’t think I can help you, I’ll be honest with you, but still give you a resource that can help you. So that’s what I’d like to end on. Thank you so much, Kristina. I know you’re going to be fine. I really do. I’ll be fine. More than fine. Just starting over again. It’s you’re just testing. Just getting your boundaries back. Probably going to save your marriage. I can tell you like a lot of marriages have been saved through the making art making money program.

Kristina Quinones (30:05):

I’m not kidding. I hear for like, oh my husband, he can’t stand to hear about this anymore. And now he doesn’t have to hear about it anymore because the artists are, or the wives are who the spouses or the partners, because the artists can come in to our community and vent and not have to burden their partners with their frustrations or any of that. They just bring it here where we can do something healthy about a Hey there’s Brady. Brady’s an old student of mine. He’s here. He did very well in the program too. All right, I’m going to shut up and I’m gonna let you get on with your evening. Thank you so much, Christina. I really appreciate you. And I’m proud of you for speaking your truth.

Kristina Quinones (30:46):

Thank you. And thank you, Ann for your guidance

Ann Rea (30:48):

And welcome. All right. Take care. Bye.