Do Art Galleries have any business charging artists money? They do.

(Transcription)

Artist, Steve Cleff, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Steve Cleff: 00:05 Graduated with a BFA in illustration from Syracuse.

Did they teach you how to make money?

Steve Clef: 00:11 Oh, there was a specific class just for the business of illustration at the time. And um, it was kind of basic kind of rudimentary, they talked about, um, it talked about targets, but different than the targets you talk about was really trying to find out who would hire me. It was more of a career focus than a business focus. It was kind of like a salaried mentality with a business situation.

Was it helpful?

Steve Cleff: 00:40 Some of it was helpful, but I did throw a lot of it away kind of quickly. Some of the stuff that I threw away was just, you know, I, I went at a time when, a little while ago and it was at a time when, the industry was changing a great deal just because of, what was coming in, you know. So when I was a freshman, the goal was, you know, someday I’ll get on the cover of Time and then I’ll, people come to me and, or I’ll get a rep.

What were your expectations?

Steve Cleff: 01:10 They did describe it as kind of a turning point where like an inflection where instead of me making the calls, the calls would come to me.

Ann Rea: 01:17 They actually tells you that in art school or in your art program that people be calling you at some point?

Steve Cleff: 01:23 Correct. That, that, you know, if you prove yourself a little bit, then you would get a, a, you get a rep and the rep would do all the hard part and then for the rep they’d have to call places, but then eventually you would get this reputation and then people would come to you. Um, so that was the thought.

What if you have a representative?

Ann Rea: 01:45 I was good friends with a very famous illustrator who’s passed away now, Yan Nascimbene. He had, uh, he had representatives. He was very famous in Japan and in France. And his life was not like that. Just saw, y’all know. His illustrations were in very prominent, uh, book covers and he published his own books and a life was not like that. And he struggled. He struggled having enough, uh, on even at the, even at the echelon he was at, he really struggled. And the reason he struggled is because he didn’t want to deal with the business side.

What if you hate business?

Ann Rea: 02:31 So if you are in business, which you are, if you’re an artist or an illustrator and you hate business, then how good is it going to be? Right? So it’s like being an illustrator but hating drawing, right? It’s really is just that simple. You have to love it and if you don’t, you have to learn to appreciate it and love it.

Add up how much you’ve paid in submission fees.

Ann Rea: 02:56 This whole idea of artists paying submission fees is kind of new. I haven’t had, that did not happen to me and I’m really appalled by it. If you’re just trying to, if you’re just starting out, I can’t, I can’t tell artists enough, please don’t waste your money if you’re going to, this is how much, I don’t know how much Marilyn Rose, you know, Marilyn, Marilyn, Rose, a fellow student of yours interview with her and I don’t know what it was like 10 that I asked her to add up how much money she had spent on fees, these submission fees and the shipping and the framing and all the BS and it was like, it was like 9,000 bucks. Don’t quote me exactly, but it was a pretty impressive number and she sold one painting out of that entire effort. So you have to find your target market. Yet, first of all, you’ve got to provide something of value, right? If your art’s no good, if you don’t have anything about a value to offer, it is what it is, right? You’ve got this sea of talent, but more importantly, after you’ve got something of value, you have to find your target market and engage them and really provide value to them and save that $45 for a foot massage or something.

What opportunity were you presented with?

Steve Cleff: 04:26 There’s a, a pretty successful gallery owner, um, who’s worked with some artists who are doing very well and um, it was presented as this gallery owner. A curator is giving every artist the opportunity in a, in a call to artists for $45 fee. You can submit up to three pieces and if they selected you, then you would have a number of pieces in a group show coming up in August.

Ann Rea: 05:00 And then how much would they take? from that, if you, if you were, if you were, uh, $45, if you’re $45, if you paid your $45 and you got into the group show, then what, how much money are we going to, where are they going to take?

Ann Rea: 05:15 I can see, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was 50%. That’s pretty standard with the galleries is anywhere from 30 to 50%.

What made you not submit?

Steve Cleff: 05:27 You know, it was a tug of war. It was a, I really liked the gallery owner. I really like his taste. You know, I liked the artists that he selects and um, you know, kind of the old me would find it very exciting if I got selected to be in that gallery.

Steve Clef: 05:43 Let me just stop you right there. So just so you’re all keenly aware, this is exactly what art contests and art contest organizers and what gallery owners charging these submission fees are playing off of. They are playing you. So what you just said, Steve, it would have been very exciting for me to be selected. Okay. That’s waiting for permission. And I know we all, we all want to be approved of. We all just, it’s our human need. We want to be approved of, we want to be accepted. And here’s the thing, that desire is always going to be there, but you have to focus it on a target market or you’re going to be played like you’re going to be played.

Steve Cleff: 06:34 Well, it’s interesting that you bring up that specific point so that, that was the, the thing that came to mind. So I kind of did it just knowing, you know, that was part of the, the new way to do things. I didn’t really remember. I didn’t really internalize like the core principle there and I was, I was glad when the submission deadline passed and I hadn’t, you know, gone to the trouble and written up my,

Ann Rea: 06:56 so tell me about that. Tell me what, why do you think you were glad that you missed the submission deadline anyway? Just the word submission. It tells you everything. You need to “submit.”

Steve Cleff: 07:08 Exactly. And then, and then get approved. You know, it was because I knew that it wasn’t going to get me closer to where I wanted to be. I know it wasn’t going help me build my business. I knew it wasn’t going help me, um, find my target audience. I know they’re not going to be at that gallery.You know what I mean? I’m still working through the course and defining exactly who that is, but I know who goes there. I have a lot of friends who show at these galleries. So I kind of know, you know, who goes and who doesn’t and it’s just, it would not have gotten me closer to what I wanted. So when it was an, it was you break any bad habit, um, you know, when you are away from the temptation.

You don’t need anyone’s approval.

Ann Rea: 07:55 Your art is not you. Right. The purchase decision is not about approving you. But I bet, I’m going to guess Steve, that you, the urge to actually apply was to feel like you’re okay as an artist.

Steve Cleff: 08:12 That I had made it.

Ann Rea: 08:13 Yeah. But really what would you have made? You would’ve given $45 away and never seen it again. And then you may or may not have sold anything in a group show. Right? And then if you did sell, how much would you get? And lastly, if someone bought it, you’re never going to be able to sell to them again because you’re not going to get anywhere near their contact information.

Steve Cleff: 08:43 Right. So it would have been not a building of a business. It would have been one time thing.

Ann Rea: 08:46 The thing is just to that you understand these terms that are offered are archaic. They’re in no way stacked for you to succeed. There are a few lucky, you know, lottery winners who actually make it, but the chances are about the same as winning the lottery. So I don’t know, I’m pretty practical.

Steve Cleff: 09:10 Well I feel great. So, so the, the last piece for me, because what happened was then the deadline got extended.

Ann Rea: 09:16 Of course it did cause he didn’t have enough artists willing to pay him 45 bucks.

Steve Cleff: 09:21 or, or the opposite. It felt great. You know, I can, I’m raking in a lot of

Ann Rea: 09:25 or the that too.

Steve Cleff: 09:29 Then somehow I remembered the reason why I was doing it was specifically as, as you said before, is that, you know what I’m doing by sending that as asking for permission to be an artist then a low probability. It’s funny you mentioned the lottery earlier because I’m thinking I could have just bought 45 lottery tickets and stuff.

Would you recommend this program?

Steve Cleff: 09:55 I’m very grateful that you’re doing what you do. I mean you, you, don’t need to do this. And I think it’s really benefiting a lot the people. So you know, every time I talk to you I say thanks just because, I spent a lot of years kind of flopping around spending, spending money, you know, bad money. So like a, a logical and, and kind of a psychological conversation I’d have. I think that the logical conversation is that I was going to spend the same amount of money on low return activities. Either way, I feel better about this certainty that I have, that, that I’m making these choices for reasons that I believe in more and, and that are going to be longer lasting and they’re going to help me make smarter decisions in the future. Pretty good. I feel, I feel pretty good. And you know, it’s funny, I, I’ve been in similar situations in the past with submissions like these and I’ve said no for, you know, and have the inventory to submit or whatever. And I, at those times I felt bad. I felt like I, you know, I wasn’t working hard enough. I wasn’t doing all the things, you know, I wasn’t taking it seriously and now I just had this very different feeling where I feel great.